Remarks
The Constituent Assembly of India met in the Constitution Hall, New Delhi, at Nine of the Clock Mr. President (The Honourable Dr. Rajendra Prasad) in the Chair.
The Constituent Assembly of India met in the Constitution Hall, New Delhi, at Nine of the Clock Mr. President (The Honourable Dr. Rajendra Prasad) in the Chair.
DRAFT CONSTITUTION—(Contd.)
DRAFT CONSTITUTION—(Contd.)
Fifth Schedule
Fifth Schedule
9.132.1
President
: We will take up the Fifth Schedule.
9.132.1
President
: We will take up the Fifth Schedule.
9.132.2
B.R. Ambedkar
: Sir, I move:
9.132.2
B.R. Ambedkar
: Sir, I move:
9.132.3
B.R. Ambedkar
That for the Fifth Schedule, the following Schedule be substituted:—
"FIFTH SCHEDULE
[Articles 215-A (a) and 215-B (1)]
PROVISIONS AS TO THE ADMINISTRATION AND CONTROL OF SCHEDULED
AREAS AND SCHEDULED TRIBES
Part 1
GENERAL
1. Interpretation.—In this Schedule, unless the context otherwise requires, the expression "State' means a State for the time being specified in Part I or Part III of the First Schedule.
2. Executive power of a State in scheduled areas.—Subject to the provisions of this Schedule, the executive power of a State extends to the scheduled areas therein.
3. Report by the Governor or Ruler to the Government of India regarding the administration of the scheduled areas.—The Governor or Ruler of each State having scheduled areas therein shall annually, or whenever so required by the Government of India, make a report to that Government regarding the administration of the scheduled areas in that State and the executive power of the Union shall extend to the giving of directions to the State as to the administration of the said areas.
Part II
ADMINISTRATION AND CONTROL OF SCHEDULED AREAS AND SCHEDULED TRIBES
4. Tribes Advisory Council.—(1) There shall be established in each State having scheduled areas therein and, if the President so directs, also in any State having scheduled tribes but not scheduled areas therein, a Tribes Advisory Council consisting of not more than twenty members of whom as nearly as may be, three-fourths shall be the representatives of the scheduled tribes in the Legislative Assembly of the State :
'Provided that if the number of representatives of the scheduled tribes in the Legislative Assembly of the State is less than the number of seats in the Tribes Advisory Council to be filled by such representatives, the remaining seats shall be filled by other members of those tribes.
(2) it shall be the duty of the Tribes Advisory Council to advise on Such matters pertaining to the welfare and advancement of the scheduled tribes in the State as may be referred to them by the Governor or Ruler, as the case may be.
(3) The Governor or Ruler may make rules prescribing or regulating as the case may be—
(a) the number of members of the Council, the mode of their appointment and the appointment of its Chairman and of the officers and servants thereof;
(b) the conduct of its meetings and its procedure in general; and
(c) all other incidental matters.
5. Law Applicable to scheduled areas.—(1) Notwithstanding anything contained in this Constitution the Governor or Ruler, as the case may be, may by Public notification direct that any particular Act of Parliament of the legislature of the State shall not apply to a scheduled area or any part thereof in the State or shall apply to a scheduled area or any part thereof in the State subject to such exceptions and modifications as he may specify in the notification.
(2) The Governor or Ruler, as the case may be, may make regulations for the peace and good government of any area in a State which is for the time being a scheduled area.
In particular and without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing power, such regulations may—
(a) prohibit or restrict the transfer of land by or among members of the scheduled tribes in any such area;
(b) regulate the allotment of land to members of the scheduled tribes in such areas;
(c) regulate the carrying on of business as money-lender by persons who lend money to members of the scheduled tribes such areas.
(3) In making any regulation as is referred to in sub-paragraph (2) of this paragraph, the Governor or Ruler may repeal or amend any Act of Parliament or of the Legislature of the State or any existing law which is for the time being applicable to the area in question.
(4) All regulation made under this paragraph shall be submitted forthwith to the President and until assented to by him shall have no effect.
(5) No regulation shall be made under this paragraph unless the Governor or the Ruler making the regulation has in the case where there is a Tribes Advisory Council for the State, consulted such Council.
Part III
SCHEDULED AREAS
6. Scheduled Areas:—(1) In this Constitution, the expression "scheduled areas" means such areas as the President may by order declare to be scheduled areas.
(2) The President may at any time by order—
(a) direct that the whole or any specified part of a scheduled area shall cease to be a scheduled area or a part of such an area;
(b) alter, but only by way of ratification of boundaries, any scheduled area;
(c) on any alteration of the boundaries of a State or on the admission into the Union or the establishment of a new State, declare any territory not previously included in any State tobe, or to form part of a scheduled area, and any such older may contain such incidental and consequential provisions as appear to the President to be necessary and proper, but save as aforesaid, the order made under sub-paragraph ( 1 ) of this paragraph shall not be varied by any subsequent order.
Part IV
AMENDMENT OF THE SCHEDULE
7. Amendment of the Schedule.—(1) Parliament may from time to time by law amend by way of addition, variation or repeal any of the provisions of this Schedule and when the Schedule is so amended any reference to this Schedule in this Constitution shall be construed as a reference to such Schedule as so amended.
(2) No such law as is mentioned in sub-paragraph (1) of this paragraph shall be deemed to be an amendment of this Constitution for purposes of article 304 thereof."
9.132.3
B.R. Ambedkar
That for the Fifth Schedule, the following Schedule be substituted:—
"FIFTH SCHEDULE
[Articles 215-A (a) and 215-B (1)]
PROVISIONS AS TO THE ADMINISTRATION AND CONTROL OF SCHEDULED
AREAS AND SCHEDULED TRIBES
Part 1
GENERAL
1. Interpretation.—In this Schedule, unless the context otherwise requires, the expression "State' means a State for the time being specified in Part I or Part III of the First Schedule.
2. Executive power of a State in scheduled areas.—Subject to the provisions of this Schedule, the executive power of a State extends to the scheduled areas therein.
3. Report by the Governor or Ruler to the Government of India regarding the administration of the scheduled areas.—The Governor or Ruler of each State having scheduled areas therein shall annually, or whenever so required by the Government of India, make a report to that Government regarding the administration of the scheduled areas in that State and the executive power of the Union shall extend to the giving of directions to the State as to the administration of the said areas.
Part II
ADMINISTRATION AND CONTROL OF SCHEDULED AREAS AND SCHEDULED TRIBES
4. Tribes Advisory Council.—(1) There shall be established in each State having scheduled areas therein and, if the President so directs, also in any State having scheduled tribes but not scheduled areas therein, a Tribes Advisory Council consisting of not more than twenty members of whom as nearly as may be, three-fourths shall be the representatives of the scheduled tribes in the Legislative Assembly of the State :
'Provided that if the number of representatives of the scheduled tribes in the Legislative Assembly of the State is less than the number of seats in the Tribes Advisory Council to be filled by such representatives, the remaining seats shall be filled by other members of those tribes.
(2) it shall be the duty of the Tribes Advisory Council to advise on Such matters pertaining to the welfare and advancement of the scheduled tribes in the State as may be referred to them by the Governor or Ruler, as the case may be.
(3) The Governor or Ruler may make rules prescribing or regulating as the case may be—
(a) the number of members of the Council, the mode of their appointment and the appointment of its Chairman and of the officers and servants thereof;
(b) the conduct of its meetings and its procedure in general; and
(c) all other incidental matters.
5. Law Applicable to scheduled areas.—(1) Notwithstanding anything contained in this Constitution the Governor or Ruler, as the case may be, may by Public notification direct that any particular Act of Parliament of the legislature of the State shall not apply to a scheduled area or any part thereof in the State or shall apply to a scheduled area or any part thereof in the State subject to such exceptions and modifications as he may specify in the notification.
(2) The Governor or Ruler, as the case may be, may make regulations for the peace and good government of any area in a State which is for the time being a scheduled area.
In particular and without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing power, such regulations may—
(a) prohibit or restrict the transfer of land by or among members of the scheduled tribes in any such area;
(b) regulate the allotment of land to members of the scheduled tribes in such areas;
(c) regulate the carrying on of business as money-lender by persons who lend money to members of the scheduled tribes such areas.
(3) In making any regulation as is referred to in sub-paragraph (2) of this paragraph, the Governor or Ruler may repeal or amend any Act of Parliament or of the Legislature of the State or any existing law which is for the time being applicable to the area in question.
(4) All regulation made under this paragraph shall be submitted forthwith to the President and until assented to by him shall have no effect.
(5) No regulation shall be made under this paragraph unless the Governor or the Ruler making the regulation has in the case where there is a Tribes Advisory Council for the State, consulted such Council.
Part III
SCHEDULED AREAS
6. Scheduled Areas:—(1) In this Constitution, the expression "scheduled areas" means such areas as the President may by order declare to be scheduled areas.
(2) The President may at any time by order—
(a) direct that the whole or any specified part of a scheduled area shall cease to be a scheduled area or a part of such an area;
(b) alter, but only by way of ratification of boundaries, any scheduled area;
(c) on any alteration of the boundaries of a State or on the admission into the Union or the establishment of a new State, declare any territory not previously included in any State tobe, or to form part of a scheduled area, and any such older may contain such incidental and consequential provisions as appear to the President to be necessary and proper, but save as aforesaid, the order made under sub-paragraph ( 1 ) of this paragraph shall not be varied by any subsequent order.
Part IV
AMENDMENT OF THE SCHEDULE
7. Amendment of the Schedule.—(1) Parliament may from time to time by law amend by way of addition, variation or repeal any of the provisions of this Schedule and when the Schedule is so amended any reference to this Schedule in this Constitution shall be construed as a reference to such Schedule as so amended.
(2) No such law as is mentioned in sub-paragraph (1) of this paragraph shall be deemed to be an amendment of this Constitution for purposes of article 304 thereof."
9.132.4
B.R. Ambedkar
I would like very briefly to explain the principal changes which have been made in the Fifth Schedule as amended and put forward before the House. The first important change is in paragraph 4 which deals with the creation of the Tribes Advisory Council. As the paragraph originally stood in the Draft Constitution, it was obligatory to have a Tribes Advisory Council in every State where there were scheduled areas or scheduled tribes. It was felt that there was no necessity by the Constitution to create an Advisory Council for a State where there were some members of the scheduled tribes living in some part of the State but which had no scheduled area. It was felt that if there was a necessity for creating an Advisory Council for the purposes of the Scheduled tribes who are not living in a scheduled area, it would be better to leave that matter to the President whether or not to create an Advisory Council. Consequently the words "and, if the President so directs, also in any State having scheduled tribes but not scheduled areas therein, a Tribes Advisory Council". In the case of scheduled areas there is an obligation to create an Advisory Council. In the case of scheduled tribes it is not obligatory by the Constitution to create an Advisory Council but it is left to the discretion of the President.
9.132.4
B.R. Ambedkar
I would like very briefly to explain the principal changes which have been made in the Fifth Schedule as amended and put forward before the House. The first important change is in paragraph 4 which deals with the creation of the Tribes Advisory Council. As the paragraph originally stood in the Draft Constitution, it was obligatory to have a Tribes Advisory Council in every State where there were scheduled areas or scheduled tribes. It was felt that there was no necessity by the Constitution to create an Advisory Council for a State where there were some members of the scheduled tribes living in some part of the State but which had no scheduled area. It was felt that if there was a necessity for creating an Advisory Council for the purposes of the Scheduled tribes who are not living in a scheduled area, it would be better to leave that matter to the President whether or not to create an Advisory Council. Consequently the words "and, if the President so directs, also in any State having scheduled tribes but not scheduled areas therein, a Tribes Advisory Council". In the case of scheduled areas there is an obligation to create an Advisory Council. In the case of scheduled tribes it is not obligatory by the Constitution to create an Advisory Council but it is left to the discretion of the President.
9.132.5
B.R. Ambedkar
The other paragraph which has undergone an important change is paragraph 5. Paragraph 5 deals with the applicability of the laws made by Parliament and by the local Legislature to the scheduled areas. Paragraph 5, as it originally stood, required that if the Tribes Advisory Council directed that the law made by Parliament or made by the local Legislature should be made applicable to the scheduled areas in a modified form, then the Governor was bound to carry out the order or the decision of the Tribes Advisory Council. It was felt that it would be much better to let the Governor have the discretion in the matter of the application of the laws made by Parliament or by the local Legislature to the scheduled areas and that his discretion should not be controlled absolutely, as it was proposed to be done by the original provision contained in paragraph 5.
9.132.5
B.R. Ambedkar
The other paragraph which has undergone an important change is paragraph 5. Paragraph 5 deals with the applicability of the laws made by Parliament and by the local Legislature to the scheduled areas. Paragraph 5, as it originally stood, required that if the Tribes Advisory Council directed that the law made by Parliament or made by the local Legislature should be made applicable to the scheduled areas in a modified form, then the Governor was bound to carry out the order or the decision of the Tribes Advisory Council. It was felt that it would be much better to let the Governor have the discretion in the matter of the application of the laws made by Parliament or by the local Legislature to the scheduled areas and that his discretion should not be controlled absolutely, as it was proposed to be done by the original provision contained in paragraph 5.
9.132.6
B.R. Ambedkar
The other important thing to which I should like to call the attention of honourable Members is to paragraph 6. Paragraph 6, as originally drafted, set out a schedule of what are to be scheduled areas. This provision has become necessary particularly because it is not possible at this stage to know what are going to be the scheduled areas in States in Part III. It is felt that both for meeting the difficulty to which I have referred as well as to make the provisions elastic, it would be much better to leave the power with the President rather than to have a definite part dealing with the scheduled areas.
9.132.6
B.R. Ambedkar
The other important thing to which I should like to call the attention of honourable Members is to paragraph 6. Paragraph 6, as originally drafted, set out a schedule of what are to be scheduled areas. This provision has become necessary particularly because it is not possible at this stage to know what are going to be the scheduled areas in States in Part III. It is felt that both for meeting the difficulty to which I have referred as well as to make the provisions elastic, it would be much better to leave the power with the President rather than to have a definite part dealing with the scheduled areas.
9.132.7
B.R. Ambedkar
Another important amendment to which I should like to draw attention is paragraph 7 which is included in Part IV and which deals with the Amendment of the Fifth Schedule. Originally, as the paragraph stood, there was no provision for the amendment of the Fifth Schedule. It is now provided that Parliament may amend this Schedule and I think it is desirable that Parliament should have the power to amend this Schedule. It is no use of creating a sort of a State within a State and it is not desirable that this kind of special provision under which certain tribes would be excluded from the general operation of the law made by the legislature as well as Parliament and the provision contained in sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 5, where, so to say, 'the Governor is constituted a law-making body for making regulations of certain character which are mentioned in (a), (b) and (c) and which are to have overriding powers in so far as they relate to these matters over any law made by Parliament or by the legislature, should not be stereotyped for all times and that it should be open to Parliament to make such changes as time and circumstances may require. Consequently, it has been provided in the new Paragraph 7 of Part IV that Parliament shall have such power to make such amendments as it finds necessary and any such amendment of the Schedule shall not be deemed to be an amendment of the Constitution, but shall be made by the ordinary process of law.
9.132.7
B.R. Ambedkar
Another important amendment to which I should like to draw attention is paragraph 7 which is included in Part IV and which deals with the Amendment of the Fifth Schedule. Originally, as the paragraph stood, there was no provision for the amendment of the Fifth Schedule. It is now provided that Parliament may amend this Schedule and I think it is desirable that Parliament should have the power to amend this Schedule. It is no use of creating a sort of a State within a State and it is not desirable that this kind of special provision under which certain tribes would be excluded from the general operation of the law made by the legislature as well as Parliament and the provision contained in sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 5, where, so to say, 'the Governor is constituted a law-making body for making regulations of certain character which are mentioned in (a), (b) and (c) and which are to have overriding powers in so far as they relate to these matters over any law made by Parliament or by the legislature, should not be stereotyped for all times and that it should be open to Parliament to make such changes as time and circumstances may require. Consequently, it has been provided in the new Paragraph 7 of Part IV that Parliament shall have such power to make such amendments as it finds necessary and any such amendment of the Schedule shall not be deemed to be an amendment of the Constitution, but shall be made by the ordinary process of law.
9.132.8
B.R. Ambedkar
I may mention that the Drafting Committee in putting forth this new Schedule had discussed the matter with the representatives of the provinces who are concerned with this particular matter, namely of scheduled area and scheduled tribes. We had also taken into consideration the opinion of my honourable Friend, Mr Thakkar, who knows a great deal about this matter and I may say without contradiction that this new Schedule has the approval of all the parties who are concerned in this matter, and I hope that the House will have no difficulty in accepting the new Schedule in place of the old one.
9.132.8
B.R. Ambedkar
I may mention that the Drafting Committee in putting forth this new Schedule had discussed the matter with the representatives of the provinces who are concerned with this particular matter, namely of scheduled area and scheduled tribes. We had also taken into consideration the opinion of my honourable Friend, Mr Thakkar, who knows a great deal about this matter and I may say without contradiction that this new Schedule has the approval of all the parties who are concerned in this matter, and I hope that the House will have no difficulty in accepting the new Schedule in place of the old one.
9.132.9
President
: I have got a large number of amendments to the original Schedule and there are some amendments to the new Schedule also. I think it is no use taking up the amendments to the old Schedule, because the old Schedule has not been moved at all. So we shall take up only the amendments to the new Schedule as proposed by Dr. Ambedkar now. I will take them one by one.
9.132.9
President
: I have got a large number of amendments to the original Schedule and there are some amendments to the new Schedule also. I think it is no use taking up the amendments to the old Schedule, because the old Schedule has not been moved at all. So we shall take up only the amendments to the new Schedule as proposed by Dr. Ambedkar now. I will take them one by one.
9.132.10
R. K. Sidhva
: May I say that in view of the fact that Dr. Ambedkar had said that all the parties are agreed on this matter, only those amendments which have some principal change should be taken up ?
9.132.10
R. K. Sidhva
: May I say that in view of the fact that Dr. Ambedkar had said that all the parties are agreed on this matter, only those amendments which have some principal change should be taken up ?
9.132.11
Mr. President
: We shall see to that as we go on with the amendments.
9.132.11
Mr. President
: We shall see to that as we go on with the amendments.
9.132.12
: Mr. President, Sir, I wish to move amendment No. 154 after omitting the first part. That change is only of a drafting nature. May I have your permission to do that ?
9.132.12
: Mr. President, Sir, I wish to move amendment No. 154 after omitting the first part. That change is only of a drafting nature. May I have your permission to do that ?
9.132.13
Mr. President
: You may do that.
9.132.13
Mr. President
: You may do that.
9.132.14
: Sir, I beg to-move my amendment No. 154.
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), for paragraph 2 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, the following be substituted:—
'2. The executive power of a State shall extend to the Scheduled Areas within the State subject to the provisions of this Schedule'."
9.132.14
: Sir, I beg to-move my amendment No. 154.
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), for paragraph 2 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, the following be substituted:—
'2. The executive power of a State shall extend to the Scheduled Areas within the State subject to the provisions of this Schedule'."
9.132.15
I also move my next amendment in this connection. Here also I omit the first part. Sir I move :
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in paragraph 2 of the proposed Fifth Schedule—
(a) for the word 'extends' the words 'shall extend' be substituted;
(b) for the word 'therein' the words 'within the State' be substituted." ."
9.132.15
I also move my next amendment in this connection. Here also I omit the first part. Sir I move :
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in paragraph 2 of the proposed Fifth Schedule—
(a) for the word 'extends' the words 'shall extend' be substituted;
(b) for the word 'therein' the words 'within the State' be substituted." ."
9.132.16
Sir, I submit that these amendments are of a drafting nature and I draw the attention of the Drafting Committee to the changes suggested. In paragraph 2 I think the better words to be "shall extend" because this is the manner in which it is expressed in paragraph 3 of the original amendment. There it is said "the executive power of the Union shall extend". In paragraph 2 in question the wording is that, "the executive power of the State extends". Instead of the word "extends" it should be "shall extend." ."
(Amendments Nos. 156 and 157 were not moved.)
9.132.16
Sir, I submit that these amendments are of a drafting nature and I draw the attention of the Drafting Committee to the changes suggested. In paragraph 2 I think the better words to be "shall extend" because this is the manner in which it is expressed in paragraph 3 of the original amendment. There it is said "the executive power of the Union shall extend". In paragraph 2 in question the wording is that, "the executive power of the State extends". Instead of the word "extends" it should be "shall extend." ."
(Amendments Nos. 156 and 157 were not moved.)
9.132.17
Mr. President
: As the amendments moved by Mr. Naziruddin Ahmad are of a drafting nature and as he proposes to leave them to the Drafting Committee, I do not suppose it is necessary to put them to vote. The Drafting Committee will take them into consideration. We now pass to para 3.
(Amendments Nos. 158, 159 and 160 were not moved.)
Paragraph I
9.132.17
Mr. President
: As the amendments moved by Mr. Naziruddin Ahmad are of a drafting nature and as he proposes to leave them to the Drafting Committee, I do not suppose it is necessary to put them to vote. The Drafting Committee will take them into consideration. We now pass to para 3.
(Amendments Nos. 158, 159 and 160 were not moved.)
Paragraph I
9.132.18
: May I suggest, Sir, that the paragraphs may be put and adopted one by one.
9.132.18
: May I suggest, Sir, that the paragraphs may be put and adopted one by one.
9.132.19
President
: Yes. I shall put paragraph 1.
9.132.19
President
: Yes. I shall put paragraph 1.
9.132.20
A. V. Thakkur
: Sir, I want to make a few general observations with regard to the whole Schedule. When shall I make them ?
9.132.20
A. V. Thakkur
: Sir, I want to make a few general observations with regard to the whole Schedule. When shall I make them ?
9.132.21
President
: I shall give an opportunity in connection with one of the amendments; you may make your general observations and you may cover the whole thing.
9.132.21
President
: I shall give an opportunity in connection with one of the amendments; you may make your general observations and you may cover the whole thing.
9.132.22
Prof. Shibban Lai Saksena
: May he not be allowed to make his general observations? We may have a general discussion.
9.132.22
Prof. Shibban Lai Saksena
: May he not be allowed to make his general observations? We may have a general discussion.
9.132.23
President
: It will take two hours and we shall be going over the same ground. I do not want to take that much time of the House.
9.132.23
President
: It will take two hours and we shall be going over the same ground. I do not want to take that much time of the House.
9.132.24
Amiyo Kumar Ghosh
: May I suggest that all the amendments be moved first, then have a general discussion and thereafter the amendments be put to vote one by one ?
9.132.24
Amiyo Kumar Ghosh
: May I suggest that all the amendments be moved first, then have a general discussion and thereafter the amendments be put to vote one by one ?
9.132.25
President
: The amendments will be put one by one. The question is:
"That Paragraph 1 of the Fifth Schedule stand part of the Schedule."
The motion was adopted.
Paragraph 1 was added to the Fifth Schedule.
Paragraph 2
9.132.25
President
: The amendments will be put one by one. The question is:
"That Paragraph 1 of the Fifth Schedule stand part of the Schedule."
The motion was adopted.
Paragraph 1 was added to the Fifth Schedule.
Paragraph 2
9.132.26
President
: I do not put the amendments moved by Mr. Naziruddin Ahmad to paragraph 2 as they are of a drafting nature. The question is:
"That paragraph 2 stand part of the Schedule."
The motion was adopted.
Paragraph 2 was added to the Fifth Schedule.
Paragraph 3
9.132.26
President
: I do not put the amendments moved by Mr. Naziruddin Ahmad to paragraph 2 as they are of a drafting nature. The question is:
"That paragraph 2 stand part of the Schedule."
The motion was adopted.
Paragraph 2 was added to the Fifth Schedule.
Paragraph 3
9.132.27
President
: Amendment 161 is also of a drafting nature.
9.132.27
President
: Amendment 161 is also of a drafting nature.
9.132.28
Hirday Nath Kunzru
: May I ask you, Sir, what is the procedure that you are following? Are you going to allow the Members to discuss the provisions generally or not ?
9.132.28
Hirday Nath Kunzru
: May I ask you, Sir, what is the procedure that you are following? Are you going to allow the Members to discuss the provisions generally or not ?
9.132.29
President
: I will allow that.
9.132.29
President
: I will allow that.
9.132.30
Hirday Nath Kunzru
: If each paragraph is put to the vote and carried, will there be an opportunity for a general discussion ?
9.132.30
Hirday Nath Kunzru
: If each paragraph is put to the vote and carried, will there be an opportunity for a general discussion ?
9.132.31
President
: If there is any amendment which lends itself to a general discussion, in that connection I will allow the whole thing to be discussed.
9.132.31
President
: If there is any amendment which lends itself to a general discussion, in that connection I will allow the whole thing to be discussed.
9.132.32
Hirday Nath Kunzru
: So far, the procedure that you have adopted has been to allow a discussion on the article generally after all the amendments have been moved. Is that procedure being departed from now ?
9.132.32
Hirday Nath Kunzru
: So far, the procedure that you have adopted has been to allow a discussion on the article generally after all the amendments have been moved. Is that procedure being departed from now ?
9.132.33
President
: I am not preventing any discussion. If there is no amendment to an article, there is nothing to be said. If any Member wishes to speak about any article, I will permit him.
9.132.33
President
: I am not preventing any discussion. If there is no amendment to an article, there is nothing to be said. If any Member wishes to speak about any article, I will permit him.
9.132.34
President
9.132.34
President
9.132.35
President
: We shall take up general discussion in connection with paragraphs 4 and 5.
9.132.35
President
: We shall take up general discussion in connection with paragraphs 4 and 5.
9.132.36
Babu Ramnarayan Singh
: Even if there is no amendment to any paragraph, that paragraph may require some observations.
9.132.36
Babu Ramnarayan Singh
: Even if there is no amendment to any paragraph, that paragraph may require some observations.
9.132.37
President
: I am not preventing that. If any Member wishes to speak about any paragraph, I will permit that.
9.132.37
President
: I am not preventing that. If any Member wishes to speak about any paragraph, I will permit that.
9.132.38
Babu Ramnarayan Singh
: Observations may be allowed to be made on the Schedule as a whole.
9.132.38
Babu Ramnarayan Singh
: Observations may be allowed to be made on the Schedule as a whole.
9.132.39
President
: That may be done in connection with paragraph 4.
9.132.39
President
: That may be done in connection with paragraph 4.
9.132.40
: I suggest, Sir, that all the amendments may be moved first and then there may be a general discussion allowed.
9.132.40
: I suggest, Sir, that all the amendments may be moved first and then there may be a general discussion allowed.
9.132.41
President
: I will call every paragraph. If any Member wishes to speak, he may do so.
9.132.41
President
: I will call every paragraph. If any Member wishes to speak, he may do so.
9.132.42
Hirday Nath Kunzru
: May I venture to make a suggestion, Sir ? If you permit, as has been suggested by Professor Shibban Lal Saksena, all the amendments to be moved, you will still have the right to put each paragraph to the vote separately. This procedure will give such Members as wish to make general observations not merely on one paragraph, but on two or three, an opportunity to express their opinion. No additional time will be taken by such a procedure.
9.132.42
Hirday Nath Kunzru
: May I venture to make a suggestion, Sir ? If you permit, as has been suggested by Professor Shibban Lal Saksena, all the amendments to be moved, you will still have the right to put each paragraph to the vote separately. This procedure will give such Members as wish to make general observations not merely on one paragraph, but on two or three, an opportunity to express their opinion. No additional time will be taken by such a procedure.
9.132.43
President
: Do you suggest that all the amendments be moved and then paragraph by paragraph be put to vote ?
9.132.43
President
: Do you suggest that all the amendments be moved and then paragraph by paragraph be put to vote ?
9.132.44
Hirday Nath Kunzru
: Yes.
9.132.44
Hirday Nath Kunzru
: Yes.
9.132.45
President
: Very well; I can do that.
9.132.45
President
: Very well; I can do that.
9.132.46
Hirday Nath Kunzru
: Before they are put to the vote, I take it that such Members as wish to make general observations will have an opportunity of doing so.
9.132.46
Hirday Nath Kunzru
: Before they are put to the vote, I take it that such Members as wish to make general observations will have an opportunity of doing so.
9.132.47
President
: I will allow that, I have already put paragraph 2. We will take up
paragraph 3.
9.132.47
President
: I will allow that, I have already put paragraph 2. We will take up
paragraph 3.
9.132.48
: This will lead to a great deal of complication and the House may be confused. It is far better to allow discussion of a general nature within reasonable limits, and then dispose of the amendments paragraph by paragraph. Otherwise, the amendments will get confused.
9.132.48
: This will lead to a great deal of complication and the House may be confused. It is far better to allow discussion of a general nature within reasonable limits, and then dispose of the amendments paragraph by paragraph. Otherwise, the amendments will get confused.
9.132.49
President
: May I know how many Members wish to take part in the general discussion ?
(About twelve Members rose in their places.)
9.132.49
President
: May I know how many Members wish to take part in the general discussion ?
(About twelve Members rose in their places.)
9.132.50
President
: It is at least three hours programme. Twelve Members; it means three hours. I was thinking of economising time. If the Members do not wish to finish the second reading before the Dusserah, I can allow that. At this rate, we may not be able to finish before the Dusserah. The whole programme may be upset later on.
9.132.50
President
: It is at least three hours programme. Twelve Members; it means three hours. I was thinking of economising time. If the Members do not wish to finish the second reading before the Dusserah, I can allow that. At this rate, we may not be able to finish before the Dusserah. The whole programme may be upset later on.
9.132.51
President
I think I had better allow all the amendments to be moved and then we can have a general discussion.
9.132.51
President
I think I had better allow all the amendments to be moved and then we can have a general discussion.
9.132.52
: That procedure will be more welcome.
9.132.52
: That procedure will be more welcome.
9.132.53
: Mr. President I beg to move:
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in paragraph 3 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, for the words 'the executive power of the Union shall extend to the giving of directions', the words 'the Union Government may give directions' be substituted." ."
9.132.53
: Mr. President I beg to move:
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in paragraph 3 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, for the words 'the executive power of the Union shall extend to the giving of directions', the words 'the Union Government may give directions' be substituted." ."
9.132.54
The expression in the context is roundabout. There would be economy of words if this amendment is accepted. Sir, I beg to move:
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 4 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, for the words 'There shall be established' the words 'The Governor or the Ruler, as the case may be, shall establish' be substituted." ."
9.132.54
The expression in the context is roundabout. There would be economy of words if this amendment is accepted. Sir, I beg to move:
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 4 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, for the words 'There shall be established' the words 'The Governor or the Ruler, as the case may be, shall establish' be substituted." ."
9.132.55
Sir, I also move:
"Thai in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 4 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, for the words 'twenty members.'
(a) the words 'twenty members appointed by him' be substituted".
9.132.55
Sir, I also move:
"Thai in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 4 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, for the words 'twenty members.'
(a) the words 'twenty members appointed by him' be substituted".
9.132.56
I do not move part (b). I also move:
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 4 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, for the words 'advise on such matters', the words 'advise of the Governor or Ruler on such matters', be substituted."
9.132.56
I do not move part (b). I also move:
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 4 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, for the words 'advise on such matters', the words 'advise of the Governor or Ruler on such matters', be substituted."
9.132.57
Sir, I also move:
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in sub-paragraph (2) of Paragraph 4 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, for the words 'by the Governor or Ruler, as the case may be,' the words 'by him' be substituted."
9.132.57
Sir, I also move:
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in sub-paragraph (2) of Paragraph 4 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, for the words 'by the Governor or Ruler, as the case may be,' the words 'by him' be substituted."
9.132.58
That exhausts my amendments as to paragraph 4. With regard to paragraph 4, there are a few points to which I wish to draw the attention of the House, specially of the Drafting Committee. The para, begins with the expression, "There shall be established in each State having scheduled areas therein and........., a Tribes Advisory Council". Instead of saying "there shall be established", we should say that "the Governor or Ruler shall establish..... etc. I want to say that the 'Governor or Ruler shall establish'. That would place the matter beyond any doubt instead of saying 'there shall be established'. Then instead of the expression 'twenty members and so forth' I wish to make it 'twenty members appointed by him. "It would be far better to make it quite clear here that the 'Governor or Ruler will appoint or establish etc... Then with regard to another amendment to para 2 there is the proviso 'that the Tribes Advisory Committee to advise'. I submit that it should be 'to advise the Governor or Ruler'. That would make it complete. Then the last amendment is that instead of 'by the Governor or Ruler, as the case may be' the words 'by him' be substituted. In sub-para. (3) there is a drafting amendment. In sub-para. 3 (a) there is the expression 'Members of the Council'. In every case where the Council is mentioned, the full expression Tribes Advisory Council is used. Nowhere the contraction "the Council" has been used. In order to keep to the general trend of the draftsmanship the expression 'Tribes Advisory Council' should be written in full.
9.132.58
That exhausts my amendments as to paragraph 4. With regard to paragraph 4, there are a few points to which I wish to draw the attention of the House, specially of the Drafting Committee. The para, begins with the expression, "There shall be established in each State having scheduled areas therein and........., a Tribes Advisory Council". Instead of saying "there shall be established", we should say that "the Governor or Ruler shall establish..... etc. I want to say that the 'Governor or Ruler shall establish'. That would place the matter beyond any doubt instead of saying 'there shall be established'. Then instead of the expression 'twenty members and so forth' I wish to make it 'twenty members appointed by him. "It would be far better to make it quite clear here that the 'Governor or Ruler will appoint or establish etc... Then with regard to another amendment to para 2 there is the proviso 'that the Tribes Advisory Committee to advise'. I submit that it should be 'to advise the Governor or Ruler'. That would make it complete. Then the last amendment is that instead of 'by the Governor or Ruler, as the case may be' the words 'by him' be substituted. In sub-para. (3) there is a drafting amendment. In sub-para. 3 (a) there is the expression 'Members of the Council'. In every case where the Council is mentioned, the full expression Tribes Advisory Council is used. Nowhere the contraction "the Council" has been used. In order to keep to the general trend of the draftsmanship the expression 'Tribes Advisory Council' should be written in full.
9.132.59
With regard to amendment 162,1 ask the Drafting Committee to consider the matter or Dr. Ambedkar to reply or it may be—if you so think fit—left over to the Drafting Committee.
9.132.59
With regard to amendment 162,1 ask the Drafting Committee to consider the matter or Dr. Ambedkar to reply or it may be—if you so think fit—left over to the Drafting Committee.
9.132.60
: I would like to make a few general observations on para. 4. If I am given that opportunity, I will not move any amendment.
9.132.60
: I would like to make a few general observations on para. 4. If I am given that opportunity, I will not move any amendment.
9.132.61
President
: You will get the opportunity.
9.132.61
President
: You will get the opportunity.
9.132.62
: Sir, I beg to move.
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in sub-paragraph (3) of paragraph 4 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, after the words 'Governor or Ruler' the words 'as the case may be' be inserted."
9.132.62
: Sir, I beg to move.
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in sub-paragraph (3) of paragraph 4 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, after the words 'Governor or Ruler' the words 'as the case may be' be inserted."
9.132.63
This is purely drafting.
9.132.63
This is purely drafting.
9.132.64
Sir, I beg to move:
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in clause (a) of sub-paragraph (3) of paragraph 4 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, for the word 'Council' the words 'the Tribes Advisory Council' be substituted."
9.132.64
Sir, I beg to move:
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in clause (a) of sub-paragraph (3) of paragraph 4 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, for the word 'Council' the words 'the Tribes Advisory Council' be substituted."
9.132.65
I beg to move:
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in clause (b) of sub-paragraph (3) of paragraph 4 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, for the words 'its procedure' the words 'the procedure to be followed" be substituted."
9.132.65
I beg to move:
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in clause (b) of sub-paragraph (3) of paragraph 4 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, for the words 'its procedure' the words 'the procedure to be followed" be substituted."
9.132.66
Sir, with regard to the last amendment 170 I wish to point out that the original para, as moved by Dr. Ambedkar requires some improvement. I think the wording I have suggested would be more fitting in the context.
9.132.66
Sir, with regard to the last amendment 170 I wish to point out that the original para, as moved by Dr. Ambedkar requires some improvement. I think the wording I have suggested would be more fitting in the context.
9.132.67
Sir, I then move:
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, for the words 'any particular Act Parliament or of the Legislature of the State' the words 'any particular existing law or any law that may be passed by the Parliament or by the Legislature of the State be substituted."
9.132.67
Sir, I then move:
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, for the words 'any particular Act Parliament or of the Legislature of the State' the words 'any particular existing law or any law that may be passed by the Parliament or by the Legislature of the State be substituted."
9.132.68
This is more important.
9.132.68
This is more important.
9.132.69
Prof Shibban Lai Saksena
: Sir, I have an amendment to paragraph 4.
9.132.69
Prof Shibban Lai Saksena
: Sir, I have an amendment to paragraph 4.
9.132.70
Mr. President
: I will take them up later.
9.132.70
Mr. President
: I will take them up later.
9.132.71
: Regarding 172 I may say that in para. 5 sub-para. (1) it is stated that the "Governor or Ruler may by public notification direct that any Particular act of Parliament or of the Legislature of the State shall not apply to a scheduled area or any part thereof etc." I submit that I would rather leave amendment 20 for consideration of the Drafting Committee.
9.132.71
: Regarding 172 I may say that in para. 5 sub-para. (1) it is stated that the "Governor or Ruler may by public notification direct that any Particular act of Parliament or of the Legislature of the State shall not apply to a scheduled area or any part thereof etc." I submit that I would rather leave amendment 20 for consideration of the Drafting Committee.
9.132.72
I then move:
"That in amendment No. 20 of List 1 (Seventh Week), in paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule:—
(a) 'in sub-paragraph (2), for the words 'may make' the words 'may, after previous consultation with the Tribes Advisory Council, make' be substituted;'
(b) sub-paragraph (5) be deleted."
9.132.72
I then move:
"That in amendment No. 20 of List 1 (Seventh Week), in paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule:—
(a) 'in sub-paragraph (2), for the words 'may make' the words 'may, after previous consultation with the Tribes Advisory Council, make' be substituted;'
(b) sub-paragraph (5) be deleted."
9.132.73
This is necessitated by consideration of the text. I then move:
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule for the words 'any area in a State which is for the time being a scheduled area' the words 'any scheduled area' be substituted."
9.132.73
This is necessitated by consideration of the text. I then move:
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule for the words 'any area in a State which is for the time being a scheduled area' the words 'any scheduled area' be substituted."
9.132.74
In this connection we have defined the expression 'scheduled area' and I submit that the use of the expression 'scheduled area' would be sufficient.
9.132.74
In this connection we have defined the expression 'scheduled area' and I submit that the use of the expression 'scheduled area' would be sufficient.
9.132.75
I then move:
"That in amendment No, 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, the brackets and figure '(3)' be inserted before the sentence beginning with the words 'in particular and without prejudice etc.' and the remaining sub-paragraphs be renumbered accordingly."
9.132.75
I then move:
"That in amendment No, 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, the brackets and figure '(3)' be inserted before the sentence beginning with the words 'in particular and without prejudice etc.' and the remaining sub-paragraphs be renumbered accordingly."
9.132.76
Now the original amendment has been worded in a roundabout fashion. I put it in a more simple form but the point is this that in para. 5 sub-para. (2) there is another sub-para. 'in particular and without prejudice and so on'. All that I desire is that this should be separately numbered and should not be left as part of sub-para. (2). It is an independent sub-para. and the object of my amendment is to number it independently and to renumber the other sub-paras. accordingly. Similar clauses or propositions in all other places are numbered separately and there is no reason why this should not be given a distinctive number.
9.132.76
Now the original amendment has been worded in a roundabout fashion. I put it in a more simple form but the point is this that in para. 5 sub-para. (2) there is another sub-para. 'in particular and without prejudice and so on'. All that I desire is that this should be separately numbered and should not be left as part of sub-para. (2). It is an independent sub-para. and the object of my amendment is to number it independently and to renumber the other sub-paras. accordingly. Similar clauses or propositions in all other places are numbered separately and there is no reason why this should not be given a distinctive number.
9.132.77
Sir, I then move:
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in clause (c) of sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, for the words 'carrying on of business as money-lender by persons who lend money' the words 'business of lending money' be substituted."
9.132.77
Sir, I then move:
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in clause (c) of sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, for the words 'carrying on of business as money-lender by persons who lend money' the words 'business of lending money' be substituted."
9.132.78
The expression in the context is extremely roundabout. It says "carrying on the business of money-lender by persons who lend money". I fail to see how a man can be a money-lender unless he is a man who lends money. So 'carry on the business of moneylender by persons who lend money' would be rather too long and the expression 'business of lending money' would be quite enough and should be acceptable.
9.132.78
The expression in the context is extremely roundabout. It says "carrying on the business of money-lender by persons who lend money". I fail to see how a man can be a money-lender unless he is a man who lends money. So 'carry on the business of moneylender by persons who lend money' would be rather too long and the expression 'business of lending money' would be quite enough and should be acceptable.
9.132.79
Then I move my amendment No. 178 and I may submit that I have made a slight verbal alteration here and there which I shall notify to the office; they are, however, of an immaterial nature. Sir, I move:
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), for sub-paragraph (3) of Paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, the following new sub-paragraph be substituted:—
'(3) The Governor or Ruler, by regulation made under sub-paragraph (2) of this paragraph, may, notwithstanding anything contained in any other part of this Constitution, direct that any existing law or any law that may be passed by the Parliament or by the Legislature of the State shall not apply, or shall apply with such modifications and changes, to any scheduled area or part thereof."
9.132.79
Then I move my amendment No. 178 and I may submit that I have made a slight verbal alteration here and there which I shall notify to the office; they are, however, of an immaterial nature. Sir, I move:
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), for sub-paragraph (3) of Paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, the following new sub-paragraph be substituted:—
'(3) The Governor or Ruler, by regulation made under sub-paragraph (2) of this paragraph, may, notwithstanding anything contained in any other part of this Constitution, direct that any existing law or any law that may be passed by the Parliament or by the Legislature of the State shall not apply, or shall apply with such modifications and changes, to any scheduled area or part thereof."
9.132.80
I think I should explain the reason why I have moved this amendment. Coming to sub-paragraph (3) of paragraph 5, it says:
"In making any regulation as is referred to in sub-paragraph (2) of this paragraph the Governor or Ruler may repeal or amend any Act of Parliament or of the Legislature of the State or any existing law which is for the time being applicable to the area in question."
9.132.80
I think I should explain the reason why I have moved this amendment. Coming to sub-paragraph (3) of paragraph 5, it says:
"In making any regulation as is referred to in sub-paragraph (2) of this paragraph the Governor or Ruler may repeal or amend any Act of Parliament or of the Legislature of the State or any existing law which is for the time being applicable to the area in question."
9.132.81
The principal object of my amendment is to avoid the words "repeal or amend any Act of Parliament or of the Legislature". What is intended by the sub-paragraph is not to allow the Governor to repeal or amend any Act of Parliament or of the local legislature and what power is being given to the Governor is to make such changes and adaptations as would bring them really applicable to the tribal areas. Therefore, I submit that the expression "repeal or amend" any Parliamentary Act or any Act of the State would be rather improper. In fact, he does not repeal any Act. That he cannot do. Repeal of an Act has a technical meaning. The Governor of a State does not repeal any Act. All that he does is to see that a Parliamentary Act or law does not really apply to the tribal area, or that he so modifies it and applies that Parliamentary law in a modified form. So I think the power to repeal or amend, would be inapplicable to the circumstances of the case. He can modify or say that the law does not apply. So I think the amendment should be acceptable to the House.
9.132.81
The principal object of my amendment is to avoid the words "repeal or amend any Act of Parliament or of the Legislature". What is intended by the sub-paragraph is not to allow the Governor to repeal or amend any Act of Parliament or of the local legislature and what power is being given to the Governor is to make such changes and adaptations as would bring them really applicable to the tribal areas. Therefore, I submit that the expression "repeal or amend" any Parliamentary Act or any Act of the State would be rather improper. In fact, he does not repeal any Act. That he cannot do. Repeal of an Act has a technical meaning. The Governor of a State does not repeal any Act. All that he does is to see that a Parliamentary Act or law does not really apply to the tribal area, or that he so modifies it and applies that Parliamentary law in a modified form. So I think the power to repeal or amend, would be inapplicable to the circumstances of the case. He can modify or say that the law does not apply. So I think the amendment should be acceptable to the House.
9.132.82
Then, I move my amendment No. 179.
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in sub-paragraph (3) of paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule—
(a) for the word 'regulation' the word 'regulations' be substituted.
(b) for the words 'as is referred to' the word 'under' be substituted.
(c) for the words 'repeal or amend any Act of Parliament or of the Legislature of the State or any existing law which is for the time being applicable to the area in question' the words 'direct that any existing law or any law that may be passed by the Parliament or by the Legislature of the State, shall apply with such modifications and changes as he thinks fit' be substituted".
9.132.82
Then, I move my amendment No. 179.
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in sub-paragraph (3) of paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule—
(a) for the word 'regulation' the word 'regulations' be substituted.
(b) for the words 'as is referred to' the word 'under' be substituted.
(c) for the words 'repeal or amend any Act of Parliament or of the Legislature of the State or any existing law which is for the time being applicable to the area in question' the words 'direct that any existing law or any law that may be passed by the Parliament or by the Legislature of the State, shall apply with such modifications and changes as he thinks fit' be substituted".
9.132.83
Sir, this is in a way an analysis of amendment No. 178, and even if No. 178 is not acceptable, the different parts in this amendment No. 179 may be accepted separately.
9.132.83
Sir, this is in a way an analysis of amendment No. 178, and even if No. 178 is not acceptable, the different parts in this amendment No. 179 may be accepted separately.
9.132.84
Sir, then I move my amendment No. 182.
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), a sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, for the words 'shall be submitted forthwith to the President and until assented to by him shall have no effect1 the words 'shall be valid on receiving the assent of the President' be substituted."
9.132.84
Sir, then I move my amendment No. 182.
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), a sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, for the words 'shall be submitted forthwith to the President and until assented to by him shall have no effect1 the words 'shall be valid on receiving the assent of the President' be substituted."
9.132.85
With regard to this amendment, I have to say that the text of sub-paragraph (4) as modified by Dr. Ambedkar's amendment says that as soon as regulations are made, they shall be submitted forthwith to the President. But I fail to see the real purpose of or the import of the word "forthwith" here. And then it says, "until assented to by him, shall have no effect". All that is indicated is presumably the normal procedure, that the regulation will have effect if assented to by the President. The condition that it shall be submitted to him forthwith is absolutely pointless. The regulation may be submitted to the President in due course. There is no hurry about it. If there is any urgency, the Governor will certainly submit it forthwith. But to lay it down as a condition that he must submit the regulation to the President forthwith is absolutely unnecessary, and it is totally unwanted. All that is intended is, as in the ordinary case of a Bill, the assent of the President makes it law. If we say that it shall be valid on receiving the assent of the President, instead of unless assented to, it is not valid, it is quite enough.
9.132.85
With regard to this amendment, I have to say that the text of sub-paragraph (4) as modified by Dr. Ambedkar's amendment says that as soon as regulations are made, they shall be submitted forthwith to the President. But I fail to see the real purpose of or the import of the word "forthwith" here. And then it says, "until assented to by him, shall have no effect". All that is indicated is presumably the normal procedure, that the regulation will have effect if assented to by the President. The condition that it shall be submitted to him forthwith is absolutely pointless. The regulation may be submitted to the President in due course. There is no hurry about it. If there is any urgency, the Governor will certainly submit it forthwith. But to lay it down as a condition that he must submit the regulation to the President forthwith is absolutely unnecessary, and it is totally unwanted. All that is intended is, as in the ordinary case of a Bill, the assent of the President makes it law. If we say that it shall be valid on receiving the assent of the President, instead of unless assented to, it is not valid, it is quite enough.
9.132.86
Sir, then I move my amendment No. 185.
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in the heading of Part III of the proposed' Fifth Schedule, for the word 'Areas, the word 'Area' be substituted."
9.132.86
Sir, then I move my amendment No. 185.
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in the heading of Part III of the proposed' Fifth Schedule, for the word 'Areas, the word 'Area' be substituted."
9.132.87
I also move No. 186:
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 6 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, for the word 'areas' whenever it occurs, the word area' be substituted."
9.132.87
I also move No. 186:
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 6 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, for the word 'areas' whenever it occurs, the word area' be substituted."
9.132.88
Sir, with regard to this series of amendments, I find that in sub-paragraph (1) the word "areas" is defined in the plural. But in sub-para. (2) it is in the singular. I think only one form—plural or singular—should be used throughout. I think the singular word would be proper and it includes the plural also.
9.132.88
Sir, with regard to this series of amendments, I find that in sub-paragraph (1) the word "areas" is defined in the plural. But in sub-para. (2) it is in the singular. I think only one form—plural or singular—should be used throughout. I think the singular word would be proper and it includes the plural also.
9.132.89
Then I move my amendment No. 187:
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 6 of the proposed Fifth Schedule for the words 'as appear' the word 'as' may appear be substituted."
9.132.89
Then I move my amendment No. 187:
"That in amendment No. 20 of List I (Seventh Week), in sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 6 of the proposed Fifth Schedule for the words 'as appear' the word 'as' may appear be substituted."
9.132.90
That exhausts my amendments. I fully concede that most of these amendments are of a drafting nature and they are intended to draw the attention of the-Drafting Committee to these points.
9.132.90
That exhausts my amendments. I fully concede that most of these amendments are of a drafting nature and they are intended to draw the attention of the-Drafting Committee to these points.
9.132.91
And then, Sir, may I with your kind permission refer to a still smaller matter, namely, that the expressions "Scheduled Castes", "Scheduled Tribes" and "Scheduled Areas" whether they should be capitalised or should begin with the small letter. This may be very insignificant looking, but to people of my way of thinking, they are important. We have capitalised the word in the case of "Scheduled Castes", but in the case of " scheduled tribes" we have tried to make them insignificant. There is no doubt that while it represents a community or class of people, the expression should be capitalised. But when referring to the "scheduled areas" also, there is the importance, and I think the expression should be capitalised there also. They refer to definite tracts of the country or the States. We described the "Non-regulated provinces" with capital letters. In order to give them due importance and grammatical symmetry, I think the expression "Scheduled Areas" should also be capitalised by the Drafting Committee before the Third Reading.
9.132.91
And then, Sir, may I with your kind permission refer to a still smaller matter, namely, that the expressions "Scheduled Castes", "Scheduled Tribes" and "Scheduled Areas" whether they should be capitalised or should begin with the small letter. This may be very insignificant looking, but to people of my way of thinking, they are important. We have capitalised the word in the case of "Scheduled Castes", but in the case of " scheduled tribes" we have tried to make them insignificant. There is no doubt that while it represents a community or class of people, the expression should be capitalised. But when referring to the "scheduled areas" also, there is the importance, and I think the expression should be capitalised there also. They refer to definite tracts of the country or the States. We described the "Non-regulated provinces" with capital letters. In order to give them due importance and grammatical symmetry, I think the expression "Scheduled Areas" should also be capitalised by the Drafting Committee before the Third Reading.
9.132.92
Jaipal Singh
: Mr. President, I beg to move:
"That in amendment No. 20 above, in paragraph 3 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, after the words 'scheduled areas' wherever they occur, the words 'and scheduled tribes' be inserted; and the words 'or whenever so required by the Government of India' be deleted."
9.132.92
Jaipal Singh
: Mr. President, I beg to move:
"That in amendment No. 20 above, in paragraph 3 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, after the words 'scheduled areas' wherever they occur, the words 'and scheduled tribes' be inserted; and the words 'or whenever so required by the Government of India' be deleted."
9.132.93
Jaipal Singh
General observations I would rather reserve to the general discussion, but in moving my amendments, I would like to state briefly why I am moving them. I find that the heading of Part I is as follows:
"PROVISIONS AS TO THE ADMINISTRATION AND CONTROL OF
SCHEDULED AREAS AND SCHEDULED TRIBES"
9.132.93
Jaipal Singh
General observations I would rather reserve to the general discussion, but in moving my amendments, I would like to state briefly why I am moving them. I find that the heading of Part I is as follows:
"PROVISIONS AS TO THE ADMINISTRATION AND CONTROL OF
SCHEDULED AREAS AND SCHEDULED TRIBES"
9.132.94
Jaipal Singh
but, in III, I find that "scheduled tribes" has been left out. I do not understand why exactly that has been done. Surely, the report of the Governor or Ruler to the Government of India should comprehend all the scheduled tribes, whether they are within the scheduled areas of the future or outside them. If the report is to apply only to those tribes who are in the scheduled areas, it would simply mean that the Government of India would know very little about scheduled tribes as a whole and, there would be literally millions of them outside the scheduled areas. Without knowing how the scheduled areas are going to be demarcated, it is almost futile to argue whether or not the report will include all the scheduled tribes of a particular list. We do not know whether the whole of Bihar will be scheduled or not. Supposing, for the sake of argument, we were to say that the whole province of Bihar were to be declared as scheduled area, then, Mr. President, my amendment is not necessary. But, we do not know yet what the result of the Commission, which I suppose the President is bound to appoint to go into the demarcation of scheduled areas in the new setup, would be. Till that is done, I am bound to insist that, at this stage, there must be a definite and certain provision whereby the Governor will be constrained to report on what has been done for all the scheduled tribes and, for the matter of that, of the backward people in each State. I hope Dr. Ambedkar will accept this amendment and, if he does so, the paragraph will read as follows:
"The Governor or Ruler of each State having scheduled areas and scheduled tribes therein shall annually make a report to the Government of India regarding the administration of the scheduled areas and scheduled tribes in that State and the executive power of the Union shall extend to the giving of directions to the State as to the administration of the said areas and scheduled tribes of the State."
9.132.94
Jaipal Singh
but, in III, I find that "scheduled tribes" has been left out. I do not understand why exactly that has been done. Surely, the report of the Governor or Ruler to the Government of India should comprehend all the scheduled tribes, whether they are within the scheduled areas of the future or outside them. If the report is to apply only to those tribes who are in the scheduled areas, it would simply mean that the Government of India would know very little about scheduled tribes as a whole and, there would be literally millions of them outside the scheduled areas. Without knowing how the scheduled areas are going to be demarcated, it is almost futile to argue whether or not the report will include all the scheduled tribes of a particular list. We do not know whether the whole of Bihar will be scheduled or not. Supposing, for the sake of argument, we were to say that the whole province of Bihar were to be declared as scheduled area, then, Mr. President, my amendment is not necessary. But, we do not know yet what the result of the Commission, which I suppose the President is bound to appoint to go into the demarcation of scheduled areas in the new setup, would be. Till that is done, I am bound to insist that, at this stage, there must be a definite and certain provision whereby the Governor will be constrained to report on what has been done for all the scheduled tribes and, for the matter of that, of the backward people in each State. I hope Dr. Ambedkar will accept this amendment and, if he does so, the paragraph will read as follows:
"The Governor or Ruler of each State having scheduled areas and scheduled tribes therein shall annually make a report to the Government of India regarding the administration of the scheduled areas and scheduled tribes in that State and the executive power of the Union shall extend to the giving of directions to the State as to the administration of the said areas and scheduled tribes of the State."
9.132.95
Jaipal Singh
Now, the second part of my amendment is for the deletion of the words "or whenever so required by the Government of India." This again, to me seems necessary; it should become statutory that an annual report should be submitted. I do not know how long the Schedule is going to last. Till I know that, I am bound to insist that the work of bettering the conditions of scheduled tribes be accelerated and that will not happen if the country is blind to what is being done r not done at all. Therefore, it is, I think, necessary that the emphasis should be on the word "annually". I certainly confess that I am not very particular about the second part of my amendment, because I do not see why I should be
suspicious of the Government that it will sleep over it for ten years or whatever it is and, perhaps, ask for a report once in twenty years. I have no reason to be suspicious. I am not very particular about the second part of my amendment, but I would definitely insist that the scheduled tribes be included as a whole.
9.132.95
Jaipal Singh
Now, the second part of my amendment is for the deletion of the words "or whenever so required by the Government of India." This again, to me seems necessary; it should become statutory that an annual report should be submitted. I do not know how long the Schedule is going to last. Till I know that, I am bound to insist that the work of bettering the conditions of scheduled tribes be accelerated and that will not happen if the country is blind to what is being done r not done at all. Therefore, it is, I think, necessary that the emphasis should be on the word "annually". I certainly confess that I am not very particular about the second part of my amendment, because I do not see why I should be
suspicious of the Government that it will sleep over it for ten years or whatever it is and, perhaps, ask for a report once in twenty years. I have no reason to be suspicious. I am not very particular about the second part of my amendment, but I would definitely insist that the scheduled tribes be included as a whole.
9.132.96
Jaipal Singh
I shall move 33 also. I beg to move:
'That in amendment No. 20 above, for sub-paragraph (2) of paragraphs of the proposed Fifth Schedule, the following be substituted:
'(2) It shall be the duty of the Tribes Advisory Council generally to advise the Governor or Ruler of the State on all matters pertaining to the administration, advancement and welfare of the Scheduled Tribes of the State'."
9.132.96
Jaipal Singh
I shall move 33 also. I beg to move:
'That in amendment No. 20 above, for sub-paragraph (2) of paragraphs of the proposed Fifth Schedule, the following be substituted:
'(2) It shall be the duty of the Tribes Advisory Council generally to advise the Governor or Ruler of the State on all matters pertaining to the administration, advancement and welfare of the Scheduled Tribes of the State'."
9.132.97
Jaipal Singh
I think my amendment is quite clear. This amendment favours the original draft and I hope Dr. Ambedkar will accept it.
9.132.97
Jaipal Singh
I think my amendment is quite clear. This amendment favours the original draft and I hope Dr. Ambedkar will accept it.
9.132.98
Jaipal Singh
Then, I shall move 47 also. I beg to move:
"That in amendment No. 20 above, in sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, after the words 'as the case may be' the words 'if so advised by the Tribes Advisory Council' be inserted."
9.132.98
Jaipal Singh
Then, I shall move 47 also. I beg to move:
"That in amendment No. 20 above, in sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, after the words 'as the case may be' the words 'if so advised by the Tribes Advisory Council' be inserted."
9.132.99
Jaipal Singh
I find that this new proposed Fifth Schedule has, somehow or other, perhaps without meaning it, emasculated the Tribes Advisory Council. The whole pattern of the original draft was to bring the Tribes Advisory Council into action. It could initiate, originate things, but, somehow or other, the tables have now been turned. The initiative is placed in the hands of the Governor or Ruler of the State. I regret that that is a situation I cannot accept, and, while I say this, Mr. President, I would like to state it is a matter of regret I have to tell the House that, for the last days secret talks and conferences have been going on among certain people. I have not been consulted. It cannot be said that all parties were consulted. I certainly was no brought to any of those conferences. Suddenly a bomb-shell is thrown by way of the new proposed Fifth Schedule. I do not grumble about the Fifth Schedule. But what I say is there is plenty of scope for improving the Fifth Schedule. I as an Adibasi had and must have the first claim to be consulted in the proposed change.
9.132.99
Jaipal Singh
I find that this new proposed Fifth Schedule has, somehow or other, perhaps without meaning it, emasculated the Tribes Advisory Council. The whole pattern of the original draft was to bring the Tribes Advisory Council into action. It could initiate, originate things, but, somehow or other, the tables have now been turned. The initiative is placed in the hands of the Governor or Ruler of the State. I regret that that is a situation I cannot accept, and, while I say this, Mr. President, I would like to state it is a matter of regret I have to tell the House that, for the last days secret talks and conferences have been going on among certain people. I have not been consulted. It cannot be said that all parties were consulted. I certainly was no brought to any of those conferences. Suddenly a bomb-shell is thrown by way of the new proposed Fifth Schedule. I do not grumble about the Fifth Schedule. But what I say is there is plenty of scope for improving the Fifth Schedule. I as an Adibasi had and must have the first claim to be consulted in the proposed change.
9.132.100
Jaipal Singh
Then my last amendment is No.50. I beg to move:
"That in amendment No. 20 above, in sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, the words 'in any such area' be deleted
9.132.100
Jaipal Singh
Then my last amendment is No.50. I beg to move:
"That in amendment No. 20 above, in sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, the words 'in any such area' be deleted
9.132.101
Jaipal Singh
The idea behind this amendment is similar to what I have already said before and it is that any benefits we might want to confer on the scheduled tribes should not be limited or circumscribed by the areas, that they should extend to the entire State or wherever the scheduled tribes may be.
9.132.101
Jaipal Singh
The idea behind this amendment is similar to what I have already said before and it is that any benefits we might want to confer on the scheduled tribes should not be limited or circumscribed by the areas, that they should extend to the entire State or wherever the scheduled tribes may be.
9.132.102
Jaipal Singh
Then there is one more amendment, No. 52.
9.132.102
Jaipal Singh
Then there is one more amendment, No. 52.
9.132.103
Jaipal Singh
I beg to move:
"That in amendment No. 20 above, in sub-paragraph (5) of paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, for the word 'consulted' the words 'been so advised by' be substituted."
9.132.103
Jaipal Singh
I beg to move:
"That in amendment No. 20 above, in sub-paragraph (5) of paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, for the word 'consulted' the words 'been so advised by' be substituted."
9.132.104
Jaipal Singh
Here again I want that the Tribes Advisory Council should be effective and have a real say in what is being done. I would not, for one moment, deny the Governor or the Ruler his powers in initiating things, but, at the same time, I do feel that the word "consulted" is not the right word there. If my amendment is accepted, it will read: "No regulation shall be made under this paragraph unless the Governor or the Ruler making the regulation has, in the case where there is a Tribes Advisory Council for the State, been so advised by such Council".
9.132.104
Jaipal Singh
Here again I want that the Tribes Advisory Council should be effective and have a real say in what is being done. I would not, for one moment, deny the Governor or the Ruler his powers in initiating things, but, at the same time, I do feel that the word "consulted" is not the right word there. If my amendment is accepted, it will read: "No regulation shall be made under this paragraph unless the Governor or the Ruler making the regulation has, in the case where there is a Tribes Advisory Council for the State, been so advised by such Council".
9.132.105
Jaipal Singh
As I have already stated, there are only two principles involved in my five amendments: first, that the. Scheduled Tribes, all of them, should be benefited by-the provisions of the Fifth Schedule and, secondly, that the Tribes Advisory Council should be a reality and not a farce. Let us not give it a big name, without any powers to do things.
9.132.105
Jaipal Singh
As I have already stated, there are only two principles involved in my five amendments: first, that the. Scheduled Tribes, all of them, should be benefited by-the provisions of the Fifth Schedule and, secondly, that the Tribes Advisory Council should be a reality and not a farce. Let us not give it a big name, without any powers to do things.
9.132.106
Yudhisthir Mishra
: Sir, I move:
"That in amendment No. 20 above, in sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 4 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, the words 'if the President so directs' be deleted."
9.132.106
Yudhisthir Mishra
: Sir, I move:
"That in amendment No. 20 above, in sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 4 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, the words 'if the President so directs' be deleted."
9.132.107
Yudhisthir Mishra
I have just heard the Honourable Dr. Ambedkar and he told us that where there are Scheduled areas in any State it is obligatory on the part of the President to constitute a Tribes Advisory Committee, but where there is no Scheduled area in any State it is left to his discretion as to whether he would think it proper to set up a Tribes Advisory Council.
9.132.107
Yudhisthir Mishra
I have just heard the Honourable Dr. Ambedkar and he told us that where there are Scheduled areas in any State it is obligatory on the part of the President to constitute a Tribes Advisory Committee, but where there is no Scheduled area in any State it is left to his discretion as to whether he would think it proper to set up a Tribes Advisory Council.
9.132.108
Yudhisthir Mishra
Now, Sir, the purpose of the amendment which I have just moved is to dy away with these discretionary powers and also to do away with the distinction which has been sought to be introduced into the proposed Fifth Schedule Sir, the Scheduled tribes are backward and therefore deserve the special attention and care of the Government both in the Centre and the provinces and I think it is for this reason that some areas are specified as Scheduled areas and some tribes have been described as Scheduled tribes. If we are going to set up a Tribes Advisory Council in a State where there is a Scheduled area, should we not also for the same reason provide a Council for the tribes where there is no scheduled area ? If it is left to the discretion of the President, he will have to depend upon the advice of the executive authority of the Centre and the provinces and it may so happen that the Provincial Governments may not like the existence of such a Council. I, therefore, submit that for the benefit of the tribal people it should be made incumbent on an Government to set up a Tribes Advisory Council even in the States where there is no Scheduled area.
9.132.108
Yudhisthir Mishra
Now, Sir, the purpose of the amendment which I have just moved is to dy away with these discretionary powers and also to do away with the distinction which has been sought to be introduced into the proposed Fifth Schedule Sir, the Scheduled tribes are backward and therefore deserve the special attention and care of the Government both in the Centre and the provinces and I think it is for this reason that some areas are specified as Scheduled areas and some tribes have been described as Scheduled tribes. If we are going to set up a Tribes Advisory Council in a State where there is a Scheduled area, should we not also for the same reason provide a Council for the tribes where there is no scheduled area ? If it is left to the discretion of the President, he will have to depend upon the advice of the executive authority of the Centre and the provinces and it may so happen that the Provincial Governments may not like the existence of such a Council. I, therefore, submit that for the benefit of the tribal people it should be made incumbent on an Government to set up a Tribes Advisory Council even in the States where there is no Scheduled area.
9.132.109
Yudhisthir Mishra
Then I move amendment No. 32.
"Thai in amendment No. 20 above, for sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 4 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, the following be substituted:—
'(2) It shall be the duty of the Tribes Advisory Council to advise the Government of the State on all matters pertaining to the administration of the scheduled areas and the welfare and advancement of the scheduled tribes in the State.' "
9.132.109
Yudhisthir Mishra
Then I move amendment No. 32.
"Thai in amendment No. 20 above, for sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 4 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, the following be substituted:—
'(2) It shall be the duty of the Tribes Advisory Council to advise the Government of the State on all matters pertaining to the administration of the scheduled areas and the welfare and advancement of the scheduled tribes in the State.' "
9.132.110
Yudhisthir Mishra
Now, the proposed Fifth Schedule in sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 4, provides that the Tribes Advisory Council should advise the Government of a State on matters relating to the welfare and advancement of the Scheduled tribes as may be referred to them by the Governor or Ruler, of a State as the case may be. In this amendment, I propose to provide, firstly, that the Tribes Advisory Council' should, instead of advising only for the welfare and the advancement of the scheduled tribes, also advise for the administration of the scheduled areas and secondly that the advisory power of the Council should not be limited by the whims and fancies of the executive authority. If the Advisory Council is to advise only on those matters which will be referred to it, then the very purpose of the Fifth Schedule will be defeated. Sir, it may happen that a particular matter may affect the tribal people, but still the Government may not refer the matter to the Advisory Council, and therefore in those matters the Advisory Council will be powerless and will not be in a position to have any say. Sir, we have already provided in article 215- B that the provision of Fifth Schedule shall apply to the administration and control of the scheduled areas and the tribes. But according to the proposed Fifth Schedule the Advisory Council will have no power to advise in the administration of the scheduled areas. The Advisory Council is for all practical purposes only an advisory body. The Governor is not bound to accept the advice tendered by the Council. We will thus be making the Council a nonentity.
9.132.110
Yudhisthir Mishra
Now, the proposed Fifth Schedule in sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 4, provides that the Tribes Advisory Council should advise the Government of a State on matters relating to the welfare and advancement of the Scheduled tribes as may be referred to them by the Governor or Ruler, of a State as the case may be. In this amendment, I propose to provide, firstly, that the Tribes Advisory Council' should, instead of advising only for the welfare and the advancement of the scheduled tribes, also advise for the administration of the scheduled areas and secondly that the advisory power of the Council should not be limited by the whims and fancies of the executive authority. If the Advisory Council is to advise only on those matters which will be referred to it, then the very purpose of the Fifth Schedule will be defeated. Sir, it may happen that a particular matter may affect the tribal people, but still the Government may not refer the matter to the Advisory Council, and therefore in those matters the Advisory Council will be powerless and will not be in a position to have any say. Sir, we have already provided in article 215- B that the provision of Fifth Schedule shall apply to the administration and control of the scheduled areas and the tribes. But according to the proposed Fifth Schedule the Advisory Council will have no power to advise in the administration of the scheduled areas. The Advisory Council is for all practical purposes only an advisory body. The Governor is not bound to accept the advice tendered by the Council. We will thus be making the Council a nonentity.
9.132.111
Yudhisthir Mishra
Then, Sir, I move amendment No. 46:
"That in amendment No, 20 above, in sub-paragraph, (1) of paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, after the words 'as the can may the words 'on the advice of the Tribes Advisory Council' be inserted.
9.132.111
Yudhisthir Mishra
Then, Sir, I move amendment No. 46:
"That in amendment No, 20 above, in sub-paragraph, (1) of paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, after the words 'as the can may the words 'on the advice of the Tribes Advisory Council' be inserted.
9.132.112
Yudhisthir Mishra
If the above amendment is not acceptable to the House, my amendment No. 51 may be taken into consideration. Sir, I move:
"That in amendment No. 20 above, in sub-paragraph (5) of paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, after the word 'No' the words 'notification or' be inserted,"
9.132.112
Yudhisthir Mishra
If the above amendment is not acceptable to the House, my amendment No. 51 may be taken into consideration. Sir, I move:
"That in amendment No. 20 above, in sub-paragraph (5) of paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, after the word 'No' the words 'notification or' be inserted,"
9.132.113
Yudhisthir Mishra
Now, Sir, the purpose of both the amendments is that if a notification is to be issued under the sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 5, then, the Tribal Advisory Council should be consulted. Now, a distinction has been made between a notification to be issued and a regulation to be promulgated by the Governor or Ruler of a State. In the case of a notification, the Tribes Advisory Council may not be consulted but it has been provided in sub-paragraph (5) of para. 5 that no regulation can be made under this paragraph unless the Governor or Ruler, as the case may be, has consulted it. Therefore I would submit that even in the case of issuing notifications, the Tribes Advisory Council should be consulted. It may find a place either in sub-para. 1 or sub-para. 5. Sir, I move:
"That in amendment No. 20 above, in sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, after die words 'scheduled area', the words 'and also the scheduled tribes' be inserted."
9.132.113
Yudhisthir Mishra
Now, Sir, the purpose of both the amendments is that if a notification is to be issued under the sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 5, then, the Tribal Advisory Council should be consulted. Now, a distinction has been made between a notification to be issued and a regulation to be promulgated by the Governor or Ruler of a State. In the case of a notification, the Tribes Advisory Council may not be consulted but it has been provided in sub-paragraph (5) of para. 5 that no regulation can be made under this paragraph unless the Governor or Ruler, as the case may be, has consulted it. Therefore I would submit that even in the case of issuing notifications, the Tribes Advisory Council should be consulted. It may find a place either in sub-para. 1 or sub-para. 5. Sir, I move:
"That in amendment No. 20 above, in sub-paragraph (1) of paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, after die words 'scheduled area', the words 'and also the scheduled tribes' be inserted."
9.132.114
Yudhisthir Mishra
An amendment to that effect has been moved by Mr. Jaipal Singh, and in moving this amendment I submit that it is the duty of the Government to issue a notification or regulation for the advancement and welfare of the scheduled areas and also for the welfare of the tribes. If it is proposed to retain para. 5 of the Fifth Schedule, then the Governor is not bound to direct that any particular Act of Parliament or of the Legislature of the State shall not apply to that particular tribe.
9.132.114
Yudhisthir Mishra
An amendment to that effect has been moved by Mr. Jaipal Singh, and in moving this amendment I submit that it is the duty of the Government to issue a notification or regulation for the advancement and welfare of the scheduled areas and also for the welfare of the tribes. If it is proposed to retain para. 5 of the Fifth Schedule, then the Governor is not bound to direct that any particular Act of Parliament or of the Legislature of the State shall not apply to that particular tribe.
9.132.115
Yudhisthir Mishra
The special purpose for moving this amendment is that there are areas in Orissa and the C.P. States which may not be specified as scheduled areas but there are certain Scheduled tribes among which certain kinds of land laws are prevalent. For example, in C.P. and Orissa States, it is not permissible on the part of a non-aboriginal to acquire the lands of an aboriginal without the sanction of the Government. Now, Sir, in that case, supposing according to paragraph 5, the Governor or the Ruler of a State does not make any regulation and retains the same provisions applicable to non-aboriginals with respect to the transfer of lands; then I shall submit that there will be no use in saying that the Government is prepared to safeguard the interests of the tribal people.
9.132.115
Yudhisthir Mishra
The special purpose for moving this amendment is that there are areas in Orissa and the C.P. States which may not be specified as scheduled areas but there are certain Scheduled tribes among which certain kinds of land laws are prevalent. For example, in C.P. and Orissa States, it is not permissible on the part of a non-aboriginal to acquire the lands of an aboriginal without the sanction of the Government. Now, Sir, in that case, supposing according to paragraph 5, the Governor or the Ruler of a State does not make any regulation and retains the same provisions applicable to non-aboriginals with respect to the transfer of lands; then I shall submit that there will be no use in saying that the Government is prepared to safeguard the interests of the tribal people.
9.132.117
Mr. President
: Are you moving amendment No. 49 ?
9.132.117
Mr. President
: Are you moving amendment No. 49 ?
9.132.118
Yudhisthir Mishra
: Sir, I move:
"That in amendment No. 20 above, in sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, after the words 'for the time being a Scheduled area' the words 'and also for the welfare and advancement of the scheduled tribes' be inserted
9.132.118
Yudhisthir Mishra
: Sir, I move:
"That in amendment No. 20 above, in sub-paragraph (2) of paragraph 5 of the proposed Fifth Schedule, after the words 'for the time being a Scheduled area' the words 'and also for the welfare and advancement of the scheduled tribes' be inserted
9.132.119
Yudhisthir Mishra
It carries the same meaning as amendment No. 48.
9.132.119
Yudhisthir Mishra
It carries the same meaning as amendment No. 48.
9.132.120
President
: So far as I can see, there is no other amendment to the Fifth Schedule as now proposed.
9.132.120
President
: So far as I can see, there is no other amendment to the Fifth Schedule as now proposed.
9.132.121
Prof. Shibban Lal Saksena
: I have some amendments.
9.132.121
Prof. Shibban Lal Saksena
: I have some amendments.
9.132.122
Mr. President
: Coming at the last moment, these amendments have not been circulated to Members. They came in at 8-58 this morning.
9.132.122
Mr. President
: Coming at the last moment, these amendments have not been circulated to Members. They came in at 8-58 this morning.
9.132.123
B.R. Ambedkar
: I have no idea about them. These should not be allowed.
9.132.123
B.R. Ambedkar
: I have no idea about them. These should not be allowed.
9.132.124
President
: If you have any amendments, you may make your observations. I
may tell the House that I have a set of new amendments sent in by Prof. Shibban Lal
Saksena and Dr. Deshmukh.
9.132.124
President
: If you have any amendments, you may make your observations. I
may tell the House that I have a set of new amendments sent in by Prof. Shibban Lal
Saksena and Dr. Deshmukh.
9.132.125
B.R. Ambedkar
: We have no copies. We do not know what they are talking about.
9.132.125
B.R. Ambedkar
: We have no copies. We do not know what they are talking about.
9.132.126
President
: Dr. Deshmukh's amendment came in at 9-20 in the morning. Prof. Saksena's came in at 8-58 in the morning. Technically you are just before the commencement of the session but I think it is very inconvenient to the other Members.
9.132.126
President
: Dr. Deshmukh's amendment came in at 9-20 in the morning. Prof. Saksena's came in at 8-58 in the morning. Technically you are just before the commencement of the session but I think it is very inconvenient to the other Members.
9.132.127
P. S. Deshmukh
: My amendments are of a drafting nature.
9.132.127
P. S. Deshmukh
: My amendments are of a drafting nature.